Wendy, I'd say  although being culture conscious is appropriate (I'm thinking of teachers teaching abroad in cultures that are not their own) that must be combined with not abandoning ones own convictions and beliefs. I totally agree that how to change teachers' attitudes and practices (teaching foreign languages), for example, is a long, difficult process.

Hi Dennis and Wendy

I will agree that it is long and difficult to change  attitudes and practices. I have no experience of CHC ( learnt a new acronym today !) but the teacher on a pedestal would last 2 minutes in an inner-city school with difficult pupils.

In my daily experience with sometimes difficult  teens :  without social interaction and constructing meaning,  there will be no motivation or interest  - and you might get downright open hostility instead !!

regards

Helen

HI Helen, Wendy and Dennis,

I am a CLT believer and I think so far I have menaged to achieve good results through applying it.

Teaching in China did, however, pose some challanges in this respect. As Wendy said, in CHC education is very teacher centered and changes are difficult to come about not so much with regards the students as with regards the teachers' attitudes and practices. Dennis is absolutly right when he says that the process takes a long time.

For 5 years now I have been trying to make my colleagues understand that shouting out, the louder the better valued,  phrases in Englihs by a group of no less than 1000 students, out in the courtyard, early in the morning is not learning a foreign language and is doing more harm than good, but to no avail. Even though afterwards, when I go over the same phrases with the students in the classroom, the former realise that more than 90% of the latter have learned and have been repeating something and I repeat "something" that doesn't even sound English. My colleagues agree that it's not a very worth while practice, but....."It's what the leaders want. They want to show that the students are active."...end of quotation. And this is just scratching the surface. The whole concept of memorising ready made phrases and trying to apply them in a semi-real life situations is surreal. I have been trying to help my students learn how to build their own simple phrases and with regards the students I have been successful. The teachers have been the greater problem. It is difficult for them to accept changes, because as Wendy said, this is how they have been taught and this is how they have been taught to teach: a student must learn the phrase by heart perfectly and must use it without any improvisations, improvements or changes. Therefore, there is no room for creativity, individuality and, God forbid, mistakes. This has been my greatest challenge, making them accept the fact that I am really happy when a student menages to give me an original answer, even though it might not be perfect, as long as he/she has menaged to get the meanign across.

I would be really happy to share experiences and ideas with teachers working in a similar environment as well as suggestions from all of you out there working hard to make the world a friendlier place to live in.

Hi, I found it very interesting reading this thread, particularly having worked in China and now in Vietnam, where I do teacher training. Not sure if I'm taking this off-topic a little, on a YL thread, but will throw in my thoughts.

I have found in training teachers in this context that although there is some appreciation of the value of communicative approaches, there is still an insistence on the 'teacher on pedestal' appraoch. A lot of the teachers I've worked with see this as a practical consideration, rather than a methodological one, as well as being the 'way it is' at their school. I have found them to be responsive on training courses, although I suspect they still struggle with putting new methodologies into practice, especially when their environment lends itself to the 'pedestal' approach. 

With students I've taught in these contexts, I've found that they will buy in to communicative approaches, if 'learning' in the more traditional sense is evident. I encourage teachers even further to utilise a 'vocabulary box' on the board - as well as being a useful reference, the students have their required 'list of vocabulary' to take away at the end of the lesson. I feel that techniques such as this, which are encouraged on initial teacher training courses, can help bridge that gap between the local educational traditions and communicative approaches.

Personally, I prefer this gradual 'bridging'. I think there is weight in Wendy's comment about the conditioning we receive, and there is a danger of viewing one method as being just 'right'. Students need to buy into the methodology. I have worked with teachers who bemoan the fact that their students are complaining because 'they just don't understand the methodology'. That suggests to me that they haven't bought into it, or can't see the value (or may be an excuse to cover bad teaching...). 

I'll be interested to see others' comments.

Thanks,

Nick

Welcome, Nick. (I know some Nicks, a Nik and a Nic, so please be undeerstanding if I sometimes get the spelling wrong).

You and Iskra bring it home to me that English language teacher is there in the front lines, ostensibly teaching languages but almost by definitiion immediately involved in cultural clash, especially in the area of  learning and teaching. And what they are up against has deep and long traditions. Take learning by heart, for example. As you know this has an honoured tradition in Jewish and Arabic (and Chinese?) religious, philosophical traditions. And frontal teaching emenating from the teacher, often standing on a raised platform, is another feature which does not lead to the communicative communication most of us would like to encourage. And in most cultures it is believed the teacher knows all. Learners, older teachers, parents, authorities share perceptions of what learning and teaching is about and how it should be done. The communicative language teacher is the one on his/her own with quite different views!

 I think it can help individual teachers to realise this, so that they do not feel discouraged or even defeated.

Clearly, change must be organised, not a matter for an individual, though, - it must  begin from the top.

And just wait until the communicative teacher starts speaking out against grammar translation!

Hi all,

One more thought - a lot of the Vietnamese teachers I work with actually quite like the idea of communicative approaches as it takes the focus off them - they are very aware of their own shortcomings in English, especially pronunciation, so receive the idea of the learners doing a lot more well. However, as I say, their circumstances don't always allow this...

Nick

Nick: "Their circumstances don't allow......."  It's very interesting what you report, though most teachers are limited, in some way, aren't they, by differing circumstances?. So what can one do, whatever the circumstance? I like the Greens' motto: "Think globally, act locally." And, it'a platitude, every school system in each area of the world is likely to have slightly different circumstances and solutions.

Behind our discussion, too, I'm aware of the conflict (very often) between academic views of teaching and learning and the reality of the classroom and experienced teachers' views.

Have you noticed, there is a great debate coming up in Cardiff live ?(I quote from memory and paraphrase) ...Research is usually done for the benefit of those that do it and has little to do with teachers and teaching.

I wouldn´t say that there is resistance in my context, in fact every teacher claims to be working communicatively, the thing is that what they put into practice is sometimes not very communicative indeed.

Daniela
Buenos Aires, Argentina

Daniele. Hi. Yes, I see the problem. Some teachers do not do what they claim to be doing.

Hi eveyone

Unfortunately I'll agree with that last comment !

I have a few colleagues who claim to be "communicative" but behind "closed doors" do long tests on irregular verbs  ;)

Hello Everybody.

There are lots of such teachers in my context (Poland) too. But they meet quite strong resistance from the students as most of them have already noticed that communicative approach to language learning is something that works much better.

Though grammar translation is still very common.

Anna

Not only tests on irregular verbs, I even saw long lists of translated words! In my context, many people who simply know how to speak the language are filling teaching positions. I think they feel more comfortable with grammar. It gives them something concrete to work on. They are also reproducing what they have experienced as students. The thing is that when you try to tell them that there is another way to teach, especially to teach YL, they reject the ideas that you try to put forward and behind closed doors nothing changes.
I don't question their good intentions, but I always wonder what is the idea of English that their students get and most of all if they learn anything beyond grammar manipulation. I also wonder to what extent are International Exams  to be blamed for the adoption of a grammar based approach.

It is at least irresponsible to be using an approach that was in vogue at the beginning of last century, don't you think?

 Daniela

Hi Daniela and everybody

You make an interesting point on exams here. Quite a few of my colleagues justify their "grammar translation lessons" by the fact that the majority of school language exams are written. 

The  Common European Framework of Reference is being implemented in a very slow fashion - but for the time being most teachers wouldn't be able to say "this pupil can do ...... but can't do .... yet "

Instead of this,  we have lists of term results ( average marks or A/B/C etc )  which have no meaning for the student or the parents   :( 

With teachers from accross the globe,  I'd be very interested to know how  your YLs  are  assessed and what your viewpoints on this are  ?

A couple of years ago I trained a mix of primary and secondary teachers in China. I was really impressed by the way they took to a more communicative approach to teaching. However, although their textbooks had been updated following the 1990s educational reforms, the extremely prescriptive exams they had to get their learners through at the end of the year remained unchanged.

It comes back to that same old dilema teachers face when working towards an exam. Are they teaching their learners how to communicate in English or how to pass an exam? Can they do both?

I do find on the whole though that the Cambridge YL tests for example are really well-written and allow for communicative, useful and real lessons in English.

Do you agree?

Jo

Hello everybody

I do agree on your comments about CYLET, they are good exams and it is much better to have young learners sit for these rather than to sit for KET as it was happening in my country.  I don't think the test is the problem, I think  the teacher´s perception of the test is. They conceive them as really prescriptive when they are not.
I think that, unfortunately, most teachers teach how to pass a test, and I also think that they are pressed to do so by their schools, principals, parents...  

http://www.cambridgeesol.org/exams/young-learners/yle.html For info on the tests

www.cambridgeesol.org/resources/teacher/yle.html for samples.

Cheers from sunny Buenos Aires,

Daniela

The funny thing is that if someone asks you to determine the degree of English language proficiency of a person, the first thing you do is have a conversation with that person! You never ask them to complete a grammar exercise. Crazy!

Daniela

Communicative Language Teaching is a label applied to a lot things that can happen in and out of classrooms. And like labels applied to what musicians do, can create a watered down, formulaic interpretation of those things ... grouping them in a cluster that can be packaged and sold by publishers and universities, or even used as a way of putting CLT practitioners on some sort of pedestal viz their colleagues. The same package can also be held up to criticism by those colleagues and administrators whose beliefs about teaching hold different values - further widening the divide between teachers in schools.

Hi everyone

Thanks Iskra for sharing some more insights on what seems to be a "complicated" situation in your teaching context. It would be difficult to criticise your Chinese colleagues - what terrible pressure to be under. Are the teachers themselves out of a job if the results are bad ?

We have a much lighter version of league tables in France (state schools) - where - shock horror !! we learn that schools in comfortable parts of town have good exam performances !!  As parents are bound by catchment areas,  this leads to parents forging proof of residence papers to get into the "good" school  !

I do agree so much with Daniela - the situation really is absurd !  Who are all these written and grammar tests for ? As a teacher in a "system", it can be very frustrating for us to have to comply with illogical instructions.

Welcome to the forum Lance - you make  valid points about conflict between colleagues . Those who feel they have the "right" method and  all these labels we like to stick on such  complex areas.

It would be great if you could share your teaching context with us - we all have a lot to learn from each other !

bye for now

Helen

Social Conditioning: A funnel for non communication

Hi and Thanks for the welcome Helen.

Most children in the country I'm in don't seem to have much opportunities other than working for the military, police, or somewhere in the ministry: either as a clerk or, if related to someone important, on the way to a cushy 'job', other job opps are with groups like Shell, or logistics and transportation. Little opportunities for entrepreneurship, or business, as the chief source of income for the populace is oil and gas. This is a newly developing society where the majority used to be fishermen. Traditionally education is a new thing. Furthermore, academic schooling is here coupled with religious schooling. So amongst the children here there are vast groups who don't really care too much for academic education ... it doesn't represent the 'hope' that the western concept ascribes it with.

But within this vast majority (?), there is a small percentage who come from families who have raised their kids to eventually attain 5 'A's on a standardised exam at  the end of primary school. Those students are taken out of their schools from around the country and grouped into a single school for their secondary education, ie: the entire country is streamed for the 'highest achievers'. I teach at that school. 

Here, like everywhere else i've ever heard about and worked at, teachers work in isolation, unable to communicate with each other about anything significant. The attempts to create "meetings" mirror events that all of us are familiar with; ie, non-communicative, non sharing, non discussing, unproblematic, authoritarian, drill calls, which can then be ticked off someone's list.This instance which is part of the overall lack of team based communication, functions as a significant feature of the school culture, which, overall, has the effect of "redistributing" these top achieving students into the usual bell curve wherein a small percentage gets very high, a large group gets mediocre, and a small group gets very low. 

Facilitating meetings, and having professional discussions with other teachers, I believe, requires a skill set, which I've seen evident in very few colleagues and supervisors, and seems to be why pretty much most meetings at schools everywhere are a waste of time and opportunity, other than to instantiate someone's power, and thereby further reveal their insecurity, and uncertainty.

This is where I'd like to expand on the notion of Communicative Language Teaching, if I may. Till recently I had believed this activity to reside in the practices between my students and me as their teacher, ie, methods. But with some recent reading, particularly, Schmoker "Results Now" and with my experiences in practice, I believe CLT needs expansion to incorporate the discursive opportunities between teachers. If teachers are able to work in teams (and that assumes a lot of practical impossibilities given the sorts of contexts most of us work in, as well as the lack of training for this, and the constrained beliefs that most teachers operate under), students will achieve much higher, tangible, results than they ever could when we work in isolation. There are many reasons for why this happens.

I'd really appreciate others' feedback on this idea.

Iskra, I thought I felt badly for the local teachers at my context, but at yours ... that's in another league. Do you find that doing the more interactive stuff you mentioned, still allows for high levels of achievement on the exams? or does it take away time for mastery learning? I'm sure you feel some tinges of emotional difficulty (guilt? doubt?). with this. And who marks the exams? 

regards,
Lance     

Hi all

WOW ... I'm at  a YLT SIG and BC event in Milan at the mo so excuse the absence ... what a lot of food for thought in your postings ... I hink what seems to be causing a lot of challenges in most contexts is the assessment leading the learning (and look at the horror stories being reported above :( :() and listening/speaking not being valued (usually cos it's harder to assess ... or am I being cynical?) ... until speaking/listening are valued (and let's face it it's what we do 90% of our lives) then approaches such as CLT will find resistant pockets ..

what do you think?  W:) 

Assessment is definitely a major part of the problem inhibiting English language learning and teaching. Hi Wendy and others here,

There are so many reasons for this. To list some off the top of my head:

Assessment is:

• mostly used as a power tool (between the administrators of schools and the educators in schools)
• serves a 'gatekeeping' function which seeks to keep a control on the number of people who can enter the gates
• gives assessors some sort of divine right to adjudicate over others (signalling human insecurity issues)
• feeble as a tool to measure competence or long term education effects of whatever learning took place (ie the 'evidence' may not become apparent for many years after the program of instruction and the experiences the learner had within it)
• usually designed by people who know very little about how to design assessment instruments
• usually divorced from what was actually taught

Iskra and forum, I

When my step-son was a teenager learning English in a German grammar school, he once explained to me with exasperation: "Dennis.  From you I learn English English, but to get good marks in tests I need to learn School English."

That was sadly quite true.

Iskra and all,

On one of my TEFL lists an angry learner was reported saying  to his teacher - this was in Greece - stop teaching me English. I don't want to learn English I want to pass the exam.

I think such anecdotes provide valuable inights into  learners' thinking, often reveal widespread attitudes and perhaps point to possible solutions.

Hi All,

CLT demands special enery because it is synthesis of all  language aspects

:grammar, lexis, phonetics and their functions according to context.

It  needs interactive activities:put problems, make decisions , make judgements, 

 share opinions,  create ideas, and define pro and con...(we usually have no time

to prepare All of them).The aim of teaching of foreign languages is to develop

language competence in order to excahge Information: to give information

(speaking) and recieve information(listening-speaking).

 If it is so, have we an alternation to teach CLT or not?

I know that it is easear to teach isoleted aspects either grammar or words

without wasting my power.

But We have to develop CLT if we remember that 

language is a means of communication .

Iskra. Can I answer your question? Of course the teacher should be human. And what you are showing your pupils,surely, is that learning a language is learning to communicate - language has a purpose and uses and that is why foreign  languages are worth learning.

Dennis

In response to Iskra's question, may I submit that famous gravestone quote from the Roman empire era ...

"Laugh, Play, Passerby, for one day you too, shall die"

If I act nonhuman, will I be able to escape this fate?

cheers,

Lance