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Grammar for Business
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Fri, 03/27/2009 - 19:56
Hi everyone,
I would like to initiate discussion here on one very much avoided topic which is grammar. It's sometimes, if not always, the nightmare for teachers to teach grammar in class. There are lots of resources for General English courses but are there any for English for business?
- Have you ever taught a Grammar for business course? What were its contents?
- Are there grammatical areas more important than others? Which ones?
- Should grammar be incorporated in all skills courses?
- How much time should be spent in teaching/ correcting accuracy in grammar?
Look forward to your comments.
Sahar
Sat, 03/28/2009 - 18:13
#2
Hi Candy and Sahar,
I tend to agree that by the time sts start BE (apart from those one who want to start off with it at Elem level!! Don't even get me started on that), they have a good understanding of grammar and most of the time i tend to focus on lexis, especially chunks of language like sentence stems or endings that can be used in a variety of ways. A lot of the time, we'll start of with some kind of task then look at the lanaguage that came up and disucuss usage and ways it's frequently used and in what context. My students (Russian) generally need to communicate with other non native speakers of English, so for them communication is key. As long as they can be understood, and understand in return, they're not too worried about a few grammar mistakes, knowing how to respond on the spot is far more important for them.
An interesting question and i also look forward to reading others' thoughts.
Jo
Sun, 03/29/2009 - 01:06
#3
I have seen several posts that either directly or indirectly suggest that being a beginner and wanting to learn business English are in some way incompatible. Can anyone explain why this is so?
Regards,
Kevin
Mon, 03/30/2009 - 12:58
#4
Hi Kevin,
I get quite a few requests for BE lessons from fairly high ranking managers who find that with the more open market in Russia nowadays they are now expected to negotiate, give presentations etc in English. Now when they're a reasonable level, e.g. Int and above, it's not a problem to teach them the language they need for their purposes. However, when they're lower in level, I can teach them GE in business contexts, but it's just too much for them to learn that and the more complex language needed for more specific communication skills. I agree with Candy that it should be made clear to sts that being able to give a presentation on the comapny's product is going to take time and is not going to happen in the next few months.
One of my ex students (elementary level) was a vice president in a large company and was so busy that he kept having to cancel lessons or would always turn up late. His secretary kept wanting to know how his English was imporving and finally when she got fed up with my 'he's doing well' type replies, told me that all he needed to know were the Present, Past, and Future tenses and then he'd be able to particpate in meetings, and surely it didn't take that long to teach them! :) If only it were that easy :)
Jo
Sun, 03/29/2009 - 05:34
#5
Hi Kevin
BE has the communication skills for the business professionals. Several posts depend upon the job description. Some may have to prepare good proposals & reports while others have to deal with customers & sales and negotioation.
This is what I've understood.
Samjhana
Sun, 03/29/2009 - 10:43
#6
Hi Kevin
I don't think it's a question of being incompatible - it just is a very rare thing, in my some 10 years experience anyway, for anyone at beginner level to want BE. All the business beginners I have had want English - whatever that entails. Since I have been teaching BE, I have had one false beginner, who was sent by his company and who was determined to conquer Past, Present, the basic question form and the basic negative form. We used typical business vocabulary and scenarios to contextualise the grammar, but there is no way that after his stay (four weeks) he would have been able to run a meeting or deliver even a rudimentary presentation. It's simply not fair to expect anyone to be able to do that. So my feeling is that should a beginner want to learn BE, it has to be made very clear that it will be a while before they will be able to conduct business in English with a great degree of competence.
But that may just have been him. I think it is dangerous to lump everyone into the same basket. Teach the person in front of you - beginner inter, advanced - and teach them what they need. The point being, it all takes time. You have to learn to drive before you can be Lewis Hamilton.
Candy
Mon, 03/30/2009 - 13:02
#7
Hi Candy,
I think it depends. I have had quite a few students who were pretty much beginners. In the same way that a beginner doing a general English course presumably doesn't expect to hold a conversation in the pub on the state of the world economy when they go on holiday, I also haven't come across the idea that a low-level BE learner expects to do these advanced things any time soon.
My general attitude is that a beginner can learn English of any specialist kind, or not. I just change the content accordingly. I fully agree with your last paragraph.
Regards,
Kevin
Sun, 03/29/2009 - 12:44
#8
Hi All ,
I n our country we study Business English when we have an intermidiate Level,
that is why we have no special grammar for BE. But I usually repeat again Pasive voices
( because there is important an action in Business En.in many cases than a subject ),
and modal verbs(which define an attitude of a subject to an action), Complex object
and Complext subject and Gerund, Infinitive, Participle Constructions ( because pragmatic
and logic English language use these reduced non-finite verb constructions instead of
"curly" composite : complex and composite sentences).
As these materials were presented and consolidated at the first and second courses
I consolidate them in the format of integrated skills.
Sun, 03/29/2009 - 22:50
#9
Hi Fazira
Interesting that you only teach BE from Intermediate level - a lot of my colleagues from other countries do the same. The grammar examples you mention are interesting too. I have a problem understanding some of these, though. Can you clarify what you mean by
reduced non-finite verb constructions
and
"curly" composite
Many thanks
Candy
Mon, 03/30/2009 - 04:09
#10
Hi Candy,
By reduced non-finite verb(al) constructions I mean :Gerund ,Infinitive,
Participle Constructions.
For example instead of Complex sentence:
"After I had read this book,I gave it".
we may give constructions:
"Having read this book, I...(Participle Construction)
or" After reading this book ,I.... (Gerund Construction)
2. "The boy who is reading is my brother ".
"The boy reading is my brother"(who is reading -reading)
By"curly" ,I mean complicated, long expression of thought from the point of grammar structure (Composite sentences: complex and compound).
Regards,
Fazira
Mon, 03/30/2009 - 14:41
#11
Hi Fazira
Thank you so much. I follow you now!
Candy
Mon, 03/30/2009 - 05:24
#12
Dear Sahar and all,
I am quite surprised why teaching Grammar during BE courses should pose a problem. Personally I believe that concentration on grammar and vocabulary should be present whatever level of students that might involve. As we say, there is no limit to perfection. No language can be mastered without its foundations. So I believe grammar and vocabulary teaching should go hand in hand, surely tailored to the students' needs and the course aims.
I am often asked by my students if grammar is essential in learning to speak English. My answer is always definite yes. And I always ask my students what purpose do they follow? Are they going to communicate in the streets or in professional settings? The more educated their partners are going to be, the more demanding in terms of the language knowledge.
Another thing - there is never enough practice, and there is always more nuances to grammar rules, always a place for revising. The point is to link grammar activities to the target vocabulary and business context. This is the trick! So nothing better have I found for myself at this stage than Business Grammar in Use. And I advise it to everybody who has not yet explored it in the classroom.
If anyone knows of another good example of Business grammar textbook, please share with us. It is really great that some of you are still teaching grammar even in the absence of the specifically designed textbooks.
Anastasia
Mon, 03/30/2009 - 13:10
#13
Hi Anastasia,
I don't think anyone is saying that it's impossible to combine teaching grammar in BE classes and I do agree that we should link grammar activities to business contexts and vocabulary, but my feeling is that most coursebooks put an unatural focus on grammar at the expense of lexical chunks, which, in my opinion, are far more useful for students. If you look at any unit on negotiating, the language focus is always conditionals (e.g. If you do this, then I'll do that etc), but if you actually listen to a negotiation, although conditionals are certainly used, they're far less frequent than the coursebook implies. The language chunks that are quite common (e.g. I'm afraid that's ...., I understand your point but ...., although this would be .... etc) are not even mentioned but its these chunks that make up 90% of the negotiation. It's because of this that I'll spend far more time in the class working on lexis than I will with working on grammar.
Best
Jo
Wed, 04/01/2009 - 01:09
#14
Hi Jo,
I share with you the difficulties of teaching grammar in this respect. I don't know if you have ever used "Effective Negotiating" from Oxford University Press, but it has exactly the same sort of phrases which you mention. Personally I am very fond of this video-course and the textbook, and find it very usefull together with the "Effective Meetings", because they provide quite full chunks of lexis, and have good examples of running meetings and negotiations in English. They also have the so-called 'good' and 'bad' examples, so students can compare and discuss. I agree with you it is hard to find the suitable textbook.
Looking forward to hearing more from you,
Anastasia
Hi Sahar
This is such an interesting question. I could write a thesis on it! But for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. By the time people come to doing "Business English", they have a fairly solid grounding in grammar anyway - common errors such as the confusion betwen past simple and present perfect, which verbs are followed by gerunds, the pure form of the condtionals, do not generally interfere with meaning. What I teach in my BE classes that could be described as grammar, are the meanings and uses of the modal verbs, the passive voice, adverbs and phrasal verbs (although I think phrasal verbs are lexical rather than grammatical). These things give BE students tools to be able to manipulate the language to make it work for them in the business situations they find themselves in. Accuracy - only correct it if the error is causing misunderstanding.
I look forward to reading what others have to say on this.
Candy